Model Railroad Podcast
hosted by: Ryan Andersen & Will Ayerst
|
Model Railcast Show #41
Sun, Nov 30, 2008
|
| Posted by: Ryan Andersen |
|
Show #41 - Layout Design Analysis Yard Office: Updates and Feedback. Round House: This week Ryan chats with Joe Fugate about Layout Design Analysis. A little LDA can go a long way. RH Followup: A preview of Ryan and Tim's chat with Don Ball and his take on LDA for his layout. The rest will be available in the pioneer section in a couple days. Departure Tracks: Check out Joe's LDA information here: Layout Design Analysis Also to learn more about Don's layout, check out the Stockton and Copperopolis RR
Download the enhanced (better sounding) version of the show with chapters: MRC Show 41 (AAC)
Chapter Time Markers for MP3 listeners:
. |
comments(14)
•
 boasted(1)
•
 toasted(0)
• Listen
|
| |
Comments  show votes |
|
Posted by: darkterritory
 on Tue, Dec 2 2008
www.Housatonicrr.comGreat show, Guys. I really enjoyed Joe's talk on LDA. I would like very much to use his calculations to get the statistics on the Housatonic. I was able to follow his steps well and I can see how it is a very valuable tool for evaluating a trackplan.
But I have a question for Joe - How would you handle the computations for Mole staging? It presents some issues that mess with the numbers, and I'm not sure what would be the best way to account for it. For instance, while the mole yard tracks do need to be as long as the passing sidings, because of the way a Mole yard is used the storage capacity is essentially unlimited. Trains are constantly being broken up and removed from the layout and then added / rebuilt later. Theoretically an operating session could continue indefinitely (In practice there are limits of course, local switching in particular). So there is not a finite number of staging 'spots' to calculate. Another problem created is calculating the number of cars needed to populate the layout. Because it is possible - indeed, desirable - to re-use cars during the session, it changes the number of cars needed to run a full session. Interestingly, though, it does not affect the number of cars moved!. In theory, any car moved to staging is immediately available for re-use. So it can be difficult to calculate this factor. Based on operating experience, I figure that on the Housatonic, we have close to a 2 to 1 re-use ratio of cars during a session, with some cars moving only once and many moving 2 or more times (passenger trains have the highest re-use factor, btw). But I'm not sure if that could have been calculated ahead of time with certainty. I'd be very interested in your thoughts on this! |
|
Posted by: darkterritory
on Tue, Dec 2 2008
www.Housatonicrr.comAlso wanted to say how much I enjoyed your interview with Don Ball, who is a good friend and another early-period modeler. Once again, you are doing a great job finding some of the bright lights in the hobby to interview. You guys keep hitting the ball out of the park every week. Keep up the great work!
And Don makes an excellent point - even if the calculations of the LDA tool indicates you can have X number of cars / trains, you may only want to have Y cars / trains for some reason. If that's so, the LDA calculation might point out that you have too much staging or capacity, and you can release some space / complexity in your design to tailor the layout to your needs. In other words, tailor the factors to match the plan and not the other way around. People should not feel they need to develop a plan to maximize a given plan if what they have designed meets their needs - sometimes less is more. I'm looking forward to listening to the rest of Don's interview in the Pioneer section. |
|
Posted by: jfugate
 on Tue, Dec 2 2008
http://siskiyou-railfan.netThe stats assume a 3-4 hour op session simulating one 24-hour cycle (6:1 - 8:1 fast clock). With live staging (aka a mole operator who takes cars off the track and puts cars on the track), the op session duration becomes unlimited because the staging tracks essentially become unlimited. Infinity is not a useful value with these stats.
These stats give you some general idea how the layout design will operate given certain parameters. You can always come up with scenarios that "break the analogy" that's assumed in the stats - and mole-based staging is one of them. Still, the stats are useful to tell you what a static staging op session would be like. Just assume the mole is sick this op session ... [wink] The max cars stat is an upper limit - there's nothing that says you MUST have that many cars on the layout. The number of cars moved stat is interesting for many reasons since it says you'll be able to move about 40% of the cars on the layout in a typical op session cycle. If your layout is full at 80% of capacity, then roughly half the cars are moving, the other half are just "in the way". This implies a yard thats 40% full will be very fluid because you will be able to move everything. However, a yard over about 40% full will start to have cars in it that won't be moving, so now they're in the way. Obviously, if the yard is 80% full, nothing will be able to move - and somewhere in the middle (60% full) the yard will become hard to switch. From this it's clear the 50% rule of thumb for yard capacity is a very useful generalization. If you're expecting to sort 100 cars in your yard, it needs 200 cars of capacity if you want switching the yard to not be a constant frustration. |
|
Posted by: Ironsiderodger
on Tue, Dec 2 2008
www.ironsaddcasts.mypodcast.comJoe thanks for that awesome interview! (you'd better check the "accomplised" option if you take that poll... ;-) ).
|
|
Posted by: CVSNE
on Tue, Dec 2 2008
snery.comEnjoyed listening to the discussion with Joe. I've had my concerns (and as I recall shared them with Joe) about his cost (of time and $$) applied to the MR project layouts so was glad to see he didn't go there!! (In a nutshell, I KNOW what some of the project layouts he used actually cost and some of his cost estimates seemed on the high end.)
I agree, hands down, that benchwork through roadbed is the cheapest segment of any layout (and ANY benchwork method works pretty well, so have at it!!) -- the one cost factor I didn't hear Joe mention was control/electrical. Of course, the older MR article Joe started with a reference to didn't even mention control systems (as we think of them) as a significant cost element. Wiring a layout for cab control DC is not chump change (especially when one has to purchase rotary switches and the like), not to mention the opportunity cost of block wiring a large railroad. If you go the command control route with decoders (sound units can easily creep above $100), radio throttles, and the like it seems prudent to really consider if you (1) NEED command control and (2) if the answer to (1) is "yes" then you should consider if you need ALL radio throttles, ALL sound decoders, etc . . . I'd say control/electrical has crept into a separate, and perhaps significant, cost category. Just a few thoughts for today . . . now I have to get my MRH column off to Joe! Marty |
|
Great show again guys! I had just found Joe's online article last week and hearing him explaining in more detail really gave me an understanding of what the stats mean and how to use them. Also, Tim, this morning on my RiverLine trip into Camden, I saw a bunch of TTX flat cars with rails on them so that really may mean double tracking effort is going to happen.
- Phil |
|
Posted by: Ironsiderodger
on Tue, Dec 2 2008
www.ironsaddcasts.mypodcast.comHey Phil!
Cool that you spotted that- it makes me even more suspicious... |
|
Posted by: motrak
on Tue, Dec 2 2008
www.stores.ebay.com/motrak-modelsGreat show as always.
I really enjoyed the roundhouse with Joe. Also what cost a lot of money on the layout are the electrical components. If you have over 50 turnout (switches) and you want them all to be powered........switch machines are expensive. Keep up the great work! |
|
Posted by: dramos_1701
on Wed, Dec 3 2008
www.nyhrr.comThat was a great interview with Joe Fugate. I enjoyed the LDA information. It's a good evaluation tool. Keep up the great work.
As far as cost goes switch machines are very expensive. That is why I went with the Blue Points and Fast Tracks turnout. I have a tone of turnouts and the Blue Points cost less than $10 for the entire assembly. That is less than the cost of a Tortoise and with the Tortoise you still need a DPDT switch and some people use a dedicated 12V power supply to throw them. When all is said and done a Tortoise will cost from $16 to $20 depending on bulk discounts. That’s 60% to 100% price difference. |
|
Posted by: don on Wed, Dec 3 2008
www.passingloop.com
what a great interview! in fact, all your interviews so far have been great and informative. There is a ton of great content for layout design and modeling in all those interviews. I believe will mentioned in show 40(?) about moving the interviews after removing the banter into the pioneer section. I think this would be a great idea. it would put all the info in one place for easy access. between your interviews, modeling books and joe fugate's videos, we would-be layout builders have all the tools to get started. will i start now? well... i have the "one-more-podcast" or the "one-more-book" syndrome. someday i shall, till then will keep listening and learning. thanks....
|
|
Posted by: alkemscalemodels
on Thu, Dec 4 2008
www.alkemscalemodels.comI was very impressed with Joe's Layout Analysis article when I first read it several years ago. It was a great compendium/quantification of various layout design adages.
I would add that for those who do not know what kind or type of RR to model, another analytical tool, called a decision matrix, might be helpful. I discussed one approach to this in an article in MRP a few years ago. Basically it allow one to systematically evaluate a layout design with respect to your own requirements (i.e. givens and druthers). I got some flak from folks who found the idea too analytical, but most people I heard from found the idea helpful. |
|
The Layout Design Analysis formula is very interesting, I know I had seen it on Joe's website a while ago and hadn't gone back to look at it until this show. I know that some people don't want to get into that sort of number crunching but I've been using an excel spreadshe
et to keep track of everything that I'm planning to do on my new layout. I figure that you never have enough time to do everything and having the calculations in advance will help. |
|
Posted by: jbaakko on Sat, Dec 6 2008
http://rr.blockchoice.com
Great show, very informative! Had to listen to it twice, but I got it now.
|
|
Posted by: ChrisNH
on Wed, Dec 10 2008
model-railroad-hobbyist.com/blog/671I finally got to listen to this!
Once again I thought having an author comment on their own work was a fantastic thing to do on the podcast and comes off really well in the format. I found the LDA tool itself interesting but limited in some respects. I think the biggest benefit is the thought process it leads one through rather then the actual results. I thought Joe's observation about what costs more in this hobby was very interesting. I approach this hobby differently then most. I own little in the way of rolling stock or locomotives. All my money goes into the layout itself. Thats where the time-value is. There will be plenty of time to collect that stuff later. There is a lot of bang for the buck to be had in this hobby if one is careful where the money goes. Chris |
| A Model Railroad focused podcast/blog. For railroading beginners and seasoned line veterans. |
home
Photo Gallery new
More Content
Support Posters
Login
NEW MRC Forum
Use iTunes to receive our weekly show and have it delivered right to your computer or MP3 player automatically.
Model Railcast Show #45
Model Railcast Show #44
MRH Magazine
Alkem Scale Models
Full Steam Ahead
Motrak Models
Bayside & TideWater
Craig's Housatonic RR
Lebanon Valley Blog
Passing Loop Blog
Reality Reduced
Scratch Builders Guild
Siskiyou (Joe Fugate)
Tam Valley RR
Sweet 16 DVD Set
Or
December 2008
Model Railcast Show #43
Model Railcast Show #42
November 2008
Model Railcast Show #41
Model Railcast Show #40
Model Railcast Show #39
Model Railcast Show #38
Model Railcast Show #37
October 2008
Model Railcast Show #36
Model Railcast Show #35