Model Railroad Podcast
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Model Railcast Show #50
Sun, Feb 8, 2009
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| Posted by: Ryan Andersen |
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Golden No. Fifty 50 Yard Office Will and Tim give us the run down and their updates. Ryan's Update. RPO Your feedback... we did have one voice mail but it was not very audible. Round House Tam Valley Depot's Quad Servo Accessory Decoder
Wrap Up
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Posted by:
dramos_1701
 on Mon, Feb 9 2009
www.nyhrr.comGreat Show!
Thanks to Tim, Rob and Jay for coming to the op session on Friday. I'm happy you had a good time. I'm working on a re-design of 30th Street and I will be going over the High Line with gauges in hand to fix the issues that popped up during the session. The interview with Duncan was great. Duncan has solved the problem of turnout controllers for my elevated High Line. Wow. I'm looking forward to adapting them and using them with his home made decoders. Great work Duncan! I like the video that Ryan shot as well. It really shows the nuts and bolts of this revolutionary system. Keep up the good work guys! |
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Posted by:
motrak
on Mon, Feb 9 2009
www.stores.ebay.com/motrak-modelsExcellence Show Ryan!!!
Duncan did a great job with the servo motors. Great idea. Susan (wife) watched the video that Ryan did and she said "it looks so easy to install." Ryan - great job on the video. Great 50th show also. The first 50 shows are done and now for the next 1000. The future is looking great for the show. Keep it up guys!! |
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Posted by:
bobcatt
on Mon, Feb 9 2009
bobcatts2bits.blogspot.com/That solves my lower-quadrant semaphore problem!
Great product, Duncan, and thanks for showing it. Let us know as soon as the price point is set. Hmmmmm. Turntable indexing, semaphore arms, ball signals, smashboards, lift bridges, crossing gates, wig-wags, swing bridges.... |
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WOW, That Quad servo is great.
Duncan, Is there any special procedure for hooking up 2 servos to control a crossover? Is the amount of motor movement adjustable for say... controlling a semaphore? |
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Ryan, there is a company that does make a card edge for Tortoise machines. At about 5 for $ 15.00 and the pins lineup. If you need to know it e-mail jamesk3142@aol.com and I will supply you guys with the site. JimK
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Congrats on the 50th!
The Model Rail Cast Show has been a blessing. I look forward to my download every week. I have now decided to switch to dcc (thanks entirely to this show and site). Now I will save my shekels. I am so impressed with Duncan's genius and generous spirit. I watched Ryan's video, which really helped to make what I heard on the podcast even clearer. I foresee a time in the not so distant future when I will put this device to use in a variety of ways. |
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Great show guys!
Duncan, the servo idea is great! Like everyone has said, you can come up with alot of uses for that little beast! Semaphores for my shortline are what I was thinking. Art |
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Posted by:
ChrisNH
on Tue, Feb 10 2009
model-railroad-hobbyist.com/blog/671Fun show! Listened to it on my way to an op session, my favorite way to enjoy the show.
I really like the approach that Duncan is taking with the control board.. making it available as something you can build yourself and modify. Too much "off the shelf" product catering to those who want to trade money for time and convenience. Its a hobby.. part of the fun is in the building. Oh yeah, and I got no money too :). For the record, the "NH" in my username is for New Hampshire, not New Haven. I wondered if that would end up sewing confusion. I am a MEC/B&M guy who, as it turns out, lives in New Hampshire. Live Free Or Die! Chris |
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Posted by:
tcoiler
on Tue, Feb 10 2009
http://www.pupman.comHi Ryan.
Could you make it a tad easier to find the mp4 version of the show? Click on the "AAC feed here" link which goes to a page of links. Clicking on the show 50 link brings me back to this page. I can't really even find the actual mp4. Also, I tried to put this comment in the "toasted" section but get Ajax page error 500, perhaps because of text length restrictions. thanks in advance. Chip |
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BTW I know the problem is the comments are shown in Arial font and in arial, capital I and small L look the same. Arial font is the bane of my existance and should be outlawed I tell you!!! LOL ;)
Regards, Ted DiIorio |
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Ryan and crew,
Great show as usual. I like what Duncan has done and will probally end up using the quad servo system also. I have a concern/question for Duncan though... I was at Craig's the night he and Ted P. installed the servos. Instalation was quick and they worked great. But I'm concerned with the excessive heat that the servos gave off. I was hoping Craig would have mentioned this to Duncan durring the show. I was wondering if Duncan experienced this happening with his servos too? I'm concerned first with whether the excessive heat could lead to premature servo failure and second and more important to me is safety. I'm worried if they get hot enough it would cause a fire. The smaller servo was to hot touch IMO. I'm thinking the cause could be maybe the way Craig hooked his up as apposed to the way I saw Duncan's on his website. Craig mentioned the other day that it seems like the servo didn't get to its end point so it keeps on working trying to get to that point. I know it was hooked up like a tortois.. music wire straight from the servo to the turnout through the roadbed. On Duncans, he used a pivot style, whereas the music wire ran off the servo, turning the wire on a pivot through a brass tub, then turned 90 degrees to go up above the roadbed, then bent 90 degrees to the throw bar then 90 degrees again through the trowbar. (please reference Ducan's website to understand my convoluted explanation). I'm thinking this has more give in it thus letting the servo make it to its end point alowing it to stop, thus maybe avoiding over heating. Duncan am I correct? Thanks again Ryan for a great show and congrats to everyone involved on making it to the 50th show. Regards, Ted DiIorio PLEASE NOTE!!! The last name is Di (DE) I (as in the letter I NOT L) Orio pronounced like the cookie. Phonectic pronunciantion is "De" "eye" "oreo". Tim, it was a pleasure to meet you at Dave's but please stop butchering my name! :) |
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Posted by:
darkterritory
on Tue, Feb 10 2009
www.Housatonicrr.comHey Guys
Ted, I thought we did mention that in our conversation but it may have been before or after the segment that got aired. I expressed the same concerns to Duncan, because the Micro servo (HS-55) did get very hot to the touch after a while. He agreed that that was an issue, and suggested using the standard-size HS-311 servo (the larger one) instead. You may recall that Ted and I installed one of these too, and while it did get warm also it was never too hot to touch. Couple in that the HS-311 can be bought for just $9.00, and it's a better deal anyway (the lowest price I could find on the HS-55 micro-servos was $13.00). I also asked Duncan about the servos constant running. He told me that the devices are designed to take the stress and should not burn out prematurely because of it. Of course, it is a mechanical device and someday they will fail, but Duncan has had many over time and never burned out a standard servo. Even when used in battle-bots (Something I think we need to know more about, Duncan!) which is a punishing task for such a device they have held up. That said, there are several things I'm going to do to try to minimize the stress on the servos. For one thing, I'm going to experiment with a lighter-gauge throwing wire to see if a little more give will help the servo reach it's mark. Second, Duncan has re-designed the Octopus controller to provide more rotation settings including some narrower ones, which may help a lot. But even if these measures don't provide the desired effect, I'm still going to go ahead with it because I think it won't be an issue with the 311-type servos. Hope that helps! Craig |
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Posted by:
Ryman
on Tue, Feb 10 2009
www.modelrailcast.com/Chip,
Looks like boast/toast ajax code is working under IE and Firefox. What browser and version are you using? Email me with the specifics please. As for the AAC feed, click the link like you did before, then click on the link next to paper clip icon to get the show. If you use iTunes or some other podcast catcher software, then subscribe to the show and you will not have to come get it every week, it will be automatically downloaded for you. In iTunes select Advance from the menu, then click Subscribe to Podcast... then type in the following: http://www.modelrailcast.com/Feeds/mrcAAC.xml |
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Tower Hobbies show the HS-311 for $8.99 with discounts for quantities. What is the current draw of the circuit and servo? If you are using very many you will need a larger supply. Just my two cents.
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Posted by:
Ironsiderodger
on Tue, Feb 10 2009
www.ironsaddcasts.mypodcast.comTed I'm a MORON! at least with names- please forgive me!
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Posted by:
darkterritory
on Tue, Feb 10 2009
www.Housatonicrr.comHere's a link to the HS-311 servo page on the Tower Hobbies site:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p? &I=LXDEL5 &P=SM#mults Answers many questions already asked, but I didn't see anything about how much power they draw... Craig |
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Posted by:
bobcatt
on Tue, Feb 10 2009
bobcatts2bits.blogspot.com/Craig,
According to the 311 series datasheet op voltage----------4.5v------------6.0v idle current---------7.4mA----------7.7mA at stopped running current---160mA---------180mA no load stall current--------700mA---------800mA There's a missing character in the downloaded font of the PDF so I can't tell if it's temperature, frequency or some other condition the running current measurements are made at. It wouldn't surprise me if they are at 60 degrees Celcius. Stall current is really high compared to the Tortoise at ~ 30mA. You obviously want these things to complete their movement and not hang up half-way! 5 watts will feel pretty warm in a small package like this. |
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After listening to the show I was unclear about how the Quad Servo Decoders has their addresses assigned. Reading the BASIC code leads me to the following conclusion: Shunt the programming pins and then send a command to a decoder. Remove the pin, and the last address is now the address of Servo 1. Servo 2 is the address+1, Servo 3 is address+2... Am I right?
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Posted by:
jbaakko
on Tue, Feb 10 2009
http://rr.blockchoice.com
I'm liking the size of that servo Duncan made, I'm wondering how warm they actually get, and if there's a way to do intermittent power so they do not get warm? My modules are 100% foam, so that creates a problem for me. I hear how Duncan cut out the foam, could it be done w/o cutting out much?
I'd love to try one out though! |
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Listening to No. 50 I couldn't help wondering if you have ever looked outside the USA for what is going on in Model Railways.
Duncan's servo driver is nothing new - kits have been available here in the UK for some time now. There is a group that is UK based, but has members worldwide, called MERG - Model Electronics Railway Group. MERG supplies kits of parts to its members for all manner of electronic applications in model railways. It has a group of kits specifically for NMRA DCC. The MERG Servo Driver will drive 4 servos and has been well proven in use for a long time. MERG has a website that would be well worth you visiting when discussing anything about electrics and electronics in model railways. http://www.merg.org.uk/ |
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Posted by:
bobcatt
on Wed, Feb 11 2009
bobcatts2bits.blogspot.com/North Americans are not known for looking outside their borders. However, the MERG site is known to a few people on this side of the pond; I found it years ago when looking for a DIY DCC system. At that time it appeared that the only access to the research material & kits was via membership - and the website was certainly not as extensive as it is today. Even the primary MERG Yahoo group is restricted to paid-up members. Frankly I'm surprised at how little self-promotion the MERG group does. Of the 30 or so model RR forums I count as reference (several UK), I only see mention of MERG in the 7mm & 7mmNGA - which is a shame, really. Not many US modellers looking at Gauge 0 sites.
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While it's true that you have to join MERG to be able to buy kits and participate in ther Yahoo! Group and relatively new Forum, you don't have to be a member to access a lot of the technical information. The Servo Driver is freeley available at http://www.merg.org.uk/resources/index.htm and then Turnout/signal control.
Most, if not all, of the Forums, Groups and Bulletin Boards run by the many specialist UK model railway societies are restricteed to paid up members. |
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Posted by:
bobcatt
on Wed, Feb 11 2009
bobcatts2bits.blogspot.com/Dick, thanks for the info and link; it is appreciated.
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I really like the size of the servos Duncan is using, especially since I'm looking at a double deck layout. I think he's on to something here and I look forward to seeing more uses of it and the feedback they generate. - Phil
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Posted by:
ChrisNH
on Wed, Feb 11 2009
model-railroad-hobbyist.com/blog/671The only servo driver I could find on the http://www.merg.org.uk/ site is the 4ch Servo Driver Board Kit 75 in the analog pdf? I could not find one in the DCC pdf.
One problem for looking across the pond for stuff is both the cost of shipping, the relative value of the dollar, and finding comparable parts. Often, but not always, its difficult to get support. Chris |
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Posted by:
bobcatt
on Wed, Feb 11 2009
bobcatts2bits.blogspot.com/MERG Kit 75 would be the one. Note that the ANEmodel servo driver board does not have DCC built-in; there is a separate board for DCC. Duncan's servo board has DCC support included. I did find MSRP pricing on the ANEmodel site; it's quite well buried in their link structure.
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From what I could see in the video clip and from listening to the programme, Duncan's servo driver board wasn't being used with DCC, but simply with a local switch. The MERG servo driver board works with any DCC accessory decoder, including the MERG one. If you are not using DCC to control your trains then you don't need to pay for the extra circuitry to do that, you just need the local switching bits.
The exchange rate is currently in your favour. If you are buying a complete kit then you don't have to worry about finding comparable parts and any servo will work with the MERG board so you can source those from your local hobby shop or from Hong Kong on eBay. Also, all the information is on the MERG website, including PCB layout and the software codes, so you don't need to import anything. Make your own boards, buy the components from one of your electronic component distributors, blow the code into a PIC and away you go. The point I was making is that Duncan's is not the first servo driver by a long way, although that was the way it was being put over in the programme. I have not come across the ANE SmartSwitch. It looks as if you get everything including the servo, so you cannot source a low-cost servo, but have to have what they supply, along with the brackets and other hardware, most of which isn't relevant or needed and could restrict how you instal the servo to drive your point baldes. |
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Posted by:
Ryman
on Wed, Feb 11 2009
www.modelrailcast.com/Dick,
I am sure neither MERG nor Duncan is the first to come up with the servo idea. Servos have been around for a long time. You sure are pushing the MERG controllers, have your group send one to me and I will be glad to review it. -=Ryan |
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Hi all,
another very interesting show, congratulations. I also liked the video about Duncan's servo board. In my personal opinion the boards Duncan designed and produced don't come from a brand new idea, though the implementation seems to make thing really easier. I mean, I saw a lot of circuits and boards to control servo drives on the internet both for model railroading and not. However, I think Duncan's board is a very nice example of a stremlined ready-to-use board for both DCC and manual control that's not easy to find elsewhere. This doesn't mean is the only one. Also, I think the idea of keeping the entire project "open" is very nice and interesting for anyone who wants to further improve it (as in open-source software) without the need to pay anything. I'd like to give you a couple of suggestion for the show: 1) add some sort of "DCC corner" to every show where hosts and guests can briefly talk, review or explain a particular topic or product in the DCC world. I don't know how it could fit into the show but I thinks it would be interesting. So you could talk about DCC-related stuff in every show even if the main topics are totaly different. 2) add a "what's in the next show" topic in the wrap-up segment where you can shortly anticipate what is going to be in the forthcoming shows, just to keep the interest high Just my five cents. Again, great job guys. Ricky4208, Italy. |
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Posted by:
darkterritory
on Thu, Feb 12 2009
www.Housatonicrr.comHey Guys
If in my excitement describing Duncan's driver I suggested that this was something never done before, I apologize - certainly as we can see here that isn't the case. For my own part, I had never looked for such a driver. I have no electronic background to draw from, I wouldn't have the first idea what to look for. My previous exposure to the idea came from a friend, Ray Louis, who first suggested to me it could be done. You know what they say, if you haven't seen it before, it's new to you. So thanks, Dick, for bringing the other options to our attention. |
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Posted by:
bobcatt
on Thu, Feb 12 2009
bobcatts2bits.blogspot.com/I believe that Duncan's approach is the first to integrate DCC control AND relays into the same board as the servo drivers themselves. It also works without DCC programming or control input. This makes for a flexible, scalable, single board solution that other sources do not offer.
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Posted by:
dmcree
on Fri, Feb 13 2009
www.tamvalleyrr.comWow - a big response to the show! I just logged in and saw all these comments and questions - let's see if I can answer some of it.
First I make no claim to have invented anything new here or to be the first at anything. I am certainly not rushing out to file any patents. I have looked over the MERG site in the past although I missed the bit there about servos. There are other examples of using servos that I found on the web and of course there are the ANE ads that have been in the hobby rags recently. There is also a product from Team Digital that is a DCC accessory decoder that can drive 4 servos that I found recently. As far as I can see the most original thing I did was to use double-sticky tape to attach the servos, but I am sure someone will tell me they did this a long time ago. By the way I have found that I can buy 3M attachment tape at our local automotive shops that is ideal for this and a lot less expensive in the long run than the servo tape from the hobby shop. What I like about the MERG approach, and that of other hobbyist sites like this, is that it can spread the cost of making boards over a number of people. Having one PC board made costs almost as much as making 10 and in fact it costs more than all of the electronics parts on the board. I have two versions of the board now - one is a standard DCC accessory decoder plus a relay board plus a LED+button controller. I call this the Quad Servo Decoder. The other is a board that can drive 8 servos controlled by a toggle switch with no DCC and no LEDs. Interestingly, the only addition to add DCC was 2 small chips. The rest is all done in software. DaveBarraza is exactly right on how the addressing works. That is the scheme used by most DCC accessory decoders. You don't normally program DCC decoders on the programming track because they usually don't have any wheels to make contact with the track... As to the heating - all the servos I have installed have barely gotten warm. Craig's are getting warm partly because he is driving Fast Tracks turnouts with stiff points but also because we need to adjust the endpoints better for using the stiff wire. While the servos can take this, that is a lot of current to feed the layout and it will shorten their lifetime. How much it shortens them is hard to say. Compared to what other people do with their servos though I think throwing turnouts is pretty light duty for these beasts. I am going to send Craig an updated version with finer control for him to try out. Finding things like this is exactly why I wanted to have the controllers beta-tested. Thanks to bobcatt for finding the current information. Clearly we want to avoid having the servo "fighting" to reach its endpoints. An even simpler thing though I am experimenting with is just to have the servo turn off. Because of the gearing I think the turnouts will hold position with no problem at the end of the run - but Craig and I are going to have to experiment with this first. And finally, you can use the servos to control a lot other things besides turnouts. It is possible to adjust the throw of the servos with board jumpers but I should point out that the simple and standard way of doing this with servos is to make use of all of those little holes on the servo horn and adjust the throw length by adjusting the length of your lever arm. Servos ship with a variety of horns and there is an amazing array of cranks, pushrods and such available at the local model airplane/car hobby shop. As for the battlebots, that is nearly as much fun as Model Railroading but you have to be willing to watch your creation get sawn to little bits by the competition... |
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Thanks for making a viewer on the website it makes it much easy to view the videos
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Posted by:
Ryman
on Sat, Feb 14 2009
www.modelrailcast.com/Your welcome, I am slowly working on getting the other videos setup the same way. :o)
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With regard to the method of getting the servos to drive the point blades, a much better way than using a wire poking up through the baseboard - as in the Tortoise method - is to use a 'Zed' drive. This is a plate with a 'Zed' shaped slot cut in it into which fits a pin in a bar that slides at right angle to the 'Zed' slot. All the servo then has to do is drive the 'Zed' plate full travel and the pin follows the slot and moves the blades. The servo doesn't have to provide the continuous locking for the blades as this is done by the 'Zed' slot and the length of the throw is set by the height of the 'Zed'.
I don't have the means to let you have any of the MERG kits for review as I am only a Member. To be able to buy the kits you need to be a member of MERG - the annual subscription is not expensive and you get a quarterly Newsletter, access to the lively MERG Yahoo! Group and the new Forum and other benefits. However, a lot of the information, particularly the DCC stuff, is available to anyone to use. |
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I'm still 5 show behind but I wanted to say Congratulations on making it to show 50!
You have created an excellent podcast Ryan. Keep up the good work. Thank You Douglas Faithful listener since show #6 |
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Looking forward to using this servo decoder design. I have 25+ turnouts with switch machines and would like to convert them. Please provide the servo drivers as a kit or even the bare board. If you are having them manufactured by a contract manufacturer that is great but it does add substantially to the cost and I am sure there are others who would love soldering the parts on their own boards.
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Hi Guys,
I'm a new listener, I love your style, not to dumbed down for newbies or to high brow to cater for the "rivet counter" or software engineer but as "Goldielocks" would say "just right". BTW I usually listen while driving real trains... |
on Sun, Feb 15 2009
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